Move Past One Source Income – David Vernick

Move Past One Source Income – David Vernick Transcription:
Steven Pesavento 00:05
This is the Investor Mindset podcast and I'm Steven Pesavento. For as long as I can remember, I've been obsessed with understanding how we can think better, how we can be better, and how we can do better. And each episode we explore lessons on motivation and mindset for the most successful real estate investors and entrepreneurs in the nation.

Welcome back to the Investor Mindset podcast. I'm your host, Steven Pesavento. And each week, we share mindset tips, and real estate investing strategies to help you take your business and your investment portfolio to the next level. And today is no different, very grateful and excited to have David Vernich in the studio today. How you doing today, David?

David Vernich 00:47
Great, Steven, thanks for having me. I appreciate your time today.

Yeah, excited to dive in. Because David is a commercial lender with over three decades of experience in the industry. And he's been partnering with investors and creating passive income for himself and others since 2007. So he's on this passive income journey, creating passive income, still working in his day job still doing the thing that he enjoys doing, but really starting to create that long term income stream that we're really all after. So we're gonna dive into some strategies that he's using and more in this episode. But before we dive into the juicy stuff on investing, let's start personal. So start by looking back at your life, what events or influences from your childhood, David shaped who you are today.

David Vernich 01:43
Probably the first thing that shaped me to where I am today is my father getting laid off when I was a young kid, he worked for a big fortune 500 company. And of course, as a kid, you always think your dad is Superman and can do no wrong. And so for him to get laid off during a recession at one point in time, even though I was only nine or 10. At the time, it had an impact on me, I'm still just a kid. But I realized that it had a emotional impact on him and my mother, as well as an impact on me going forward that I essentially would not trust a corporation with my financial future, even at that age.

Mm hmm. So you'd kind of planted this belief in your mind very early on that a company or a job? You cannot, you cannot have 100% trust in it. So tell us where did that first come out after you had been working? And really working in your career creating active income creating that w two income? What did you first notice that kind of come out into the surface, and I can imagine what it drove you to do, but let's hear about it?

David Vernich 02:47
Well, my first job out of college, I worked for a company that wholesaled video cassettes, and this was back before Blockbuster Video. So this goes back aways. But anybody that had an entrepreneurial bent to them was quitting their job and opening up the neighborhood video store, you know, so my job was as a distributor, you know, get them to start their opening inventory with my company. And I sold I think it was $14 million with a video cassettes my first year. But I was on straight salary. This is 1984 Straight salary. So I went to my boss after one year. And I said, Hey, how about cutting me in on like a commission for sales. This is a sales job. And I'm like, we kind of like it the way it is. So that was my first clue that, you know, what's good for you isn't necessarily good for me. And I didn't hang around there very long after that.

Yeah. And so you noticed in that moment that you start seeing, hey, I'm creating a massive amount of value, I want to take a little bit more risk and start participating in some of that upside. And that kind of drove you to go find a little bit a different path. Tell us when it comes to passive investing. You've been making some of these moves since 2007. Tell us what was the point where you realized, okay, I need to start creating another income stream that's outside of my career. And what was the driver behind that?

David Vernich 04:16
Well, it was twofold. One was originally not trusting that my 100% of my income come from one source going back to age nine or 10. So that was that was always a big driver in the back of my mind is not to have all my money coming from one source. And the second thing was essentially, at age 45. I was 20 years into a 40 year career. You know, everybody essentially goes from age 25 to 65 until they retire. So I was at halftime, the proverbial halftime in my career and I said it's time to make some halftime adjustments. Let's take a look at where I sit today. And then when I looked at it, I realized quickly that this was not going to generate enough money from my passive income sources to replace the income I was making and I Do you want to take a pay cut? So those two things combined? Were the motivation for me to do this?

Mm hmm. So you kind of you hit this point you realized, wow, I don't have trust that I'm going to be taken care of long term for my career, the old gold watch, and let my retirement take care of me forever idea is really out the window. But a lot of people still believe it. So the fact that you had kind of had that distrust, although maybe it wasn't making you comfortable, it made you go do something different. What was one of the first things that you started doing, that started creating one of those streams?

David Vernich 05:35
Well, I looked at my loan portfolio and said, Who would I want to switch places with? You know, and most of them were small business, medium business size owners, and they all had the same headaches that a lot of business owners realize. And essentially, it comes down to dealing with a lot of employees and government regulation. So those two things were kind of the big negatives, which kept me from wanting to leave my w two. But then I looked at it really hard, and really the people that I admired the most. And they were actually experiencing, the kind of lifestyle that I envisioned for myself, were the real estate investors. And so I reached out to a gentleman who had retired and then got into real estate at the age of 65. He decided he was going to multifamily apartments, and I started financing some of them for him. And I asked him, I'm like, I left that bank. So he was no longer my customer. I had been through seven bank mergers in my career. And essentially, when I go into my next bank, I said, I don't want you to be my customer, I want to be your partner how let me into some of your apartment deals. So we got into my first apartment deal was how I dipped my toe in the water, because I knew I was gonna only want to do it passively. And that worked out to be a great deal to get me started in real estate.

Yeah, so you had that realization, you started seeing someone else doing it, you started noticing that what's working for them, you recognize that they had a lot of the things that you wanted. So you kind of went out and found somebody who was doing that, and you got involved, and I happen to be a multifamily deal. So I know that no matter what type of real estate asset you're investing in, you can start to create passive income. And so it's really great to see just as an example, it doesn't take it being that complicated. We don't have to get to custom or specialized here, we just really need to go and find people that we can trust, that we can build a relationship with, whether that's whether that's digital, like to hear on the podcast, whether that is something that you're working with somebody in person, B actually went and then took action and found a way to be able to put some of your money to work, I think that's really, really big. And so one of the things we focus on a lot at the investor mindset is really changing the way that you think about money. And, you know, people need to be focused on making money on multiplying money, and on managing money. And oftentimes, people do that in the wrong order, they'll try to focus on managing money, they don't have tried to save a bucket Starbucks instead of going and figuring out a way to make another 2050 or $100,000 a year. And so for you in your position, while you're working your career. How did you decide that, you know, making the move towards multiplying money by investing passively was the right choice for you at that point in time, versus getting more active and, you know, getting involved in a business or, or something that's going to spruce up the way that you're making money?

David Vernich 08:46
Well, actually, I tried other things before real estate, they just didn't work. So I, I started a business from scratch, I bought a business, I tried to do an Amazon business, I tried multilevel marketing at one point. None of them worked for me. And I had an appreciation since I was lending money to successful business owners that it took a rare individual to be able to take a business from an idea to actually making enough money to make more than they could if they just went to work for somebody else. So when I tried everything else, and all roads lead back to real estate, you know, banks loved lender real unreal estate, and it's a very simple concept for people understand. The one thing that kept me away from doing it is I am terrible at anything. I can't fix anything I don't I can't swing a hammer. I've never built anything in my life. If I did, it would fall apart. So essentially, and I had no interest in it either. So you know, people will say well, you learn anything I've said you can. But are you going to be good at it? And are you going to be is is there a better use of your time? So when I had to the concept I had to come across Is the who not how were a lot of real estate centric type of podcasts, they have a real estate guru that basically says, Look, I did, I was, you know, born in a in a barn and had no money. And now I'm a multimillionaire and a yacht. And I can take a house and drop me anywhere in America, and I can take a half find a house and, and negotiate seller financing, and I got my tool belt out, and I can fix the thing, and I can flip the thing, and I can talk to people, you know, they have all these skill sets. And it's like, yeah, that's a very rare person that can do that. And if you can do that, I say, great. But for the rest of us, mortals, you know, what are we supposed to do. And so that kept me from doing real estate until I realized, I don't have to be the guy that even goes to find the house, I can literally sit in my office, and wait for my phone to go ding, and it's like, Hey, Dave, we found this house, we need this much money for closing, make sure it's there. That's your job. And I generally can do my job in 15 minutes. So why leave my job when, you know, essentially, if I can get you your money to you in 15 minutes, give me a piece of the action and I'm on the note. So I I take away from them, what is it? What is their weakness into my strength, they take away what's my weakness into their strength. And the combination of those things makes their life easier, and my life easier. And we all share in the spoils.

I love this. I love this concept. I'm a big believer in doing what you do best and letting others do the rest. Because at the core of it, I flipped 200 houses in about two and a half years. And I'm not a handy person, I'm not swinging a hammer. I didn't even live in the States that I was operating in. But I knew how to build a team and I knew how to find deals. And I went out and I did that piece and I found someone else to do the rest. And then same in managing and operating multifamily. You know, we're, we're asset managing, we're finding deals, we're putting capital together, we're operating. But we're not property managing, I'm not doing construction, we're not out there every single day, we've got people on our team, and vendors who are doing the thing that they're best at. But truth is, some people wouldn't even want to do what I'm doing, they wouldn't want to spend a decade learning the skills in order to step into this position. And quite frankly, they don't need to, because there's actually better paths towards creating financial freedom that you can actually be free to not have to do the work. And so I love that. So one of the things that we really believe in and what we define financial independence, as is that moment that your passive income number reaches your target, your name your number target, which is double what your expenses are when you set that target. So what I'm curious is David, when did you realize that you made it? When did you realize that you were financially independent?

David Vernich 12:53
I realized that when I saw I didn't even start tracking my passive income, because it's such a slow roll when you first get started. So 2008 was my first full year. And I can't even tell you what I made, I have to go pull up a tax return. I knew this was a long game. But I realized every year that I was consistently doing this, and in the beginning, we were doing about a house a month, because it was 2008. So you can easily find things to buy and fix up and rent. I have a spreadsheet that I started in it didn't start it until 2015. I still did, I didn't start tracking because I was like, hey, this thing is actually starting to grow. So if I were to pull up my spreadsheet right now and take a look at it, I would believe that so I'm 15 years into it. I would believe in 10 years, I have replaced my full time WTO income. And that's when I knew I had something and that and I was still working. So it's like why quit? Because I can do both. And so I actually had double my income. And now I'm just keeping my job because it's relatively easy for me to do. I've been doing it for 38 years. And I'm not nobody's ever accused me of being a workaholic nobody. So essentially, I'm a nine to three in a day and have lots of free time to go to log lunches. And you know, your typical banker jokes. Some of those are true, especially with me. And I was like, hey, if I don't have to quit my job, and they're going to match my 401 K and I get my health insurance subsidized. Why would I leave this unless it's keeping me from doing my real estate, which it's not. So it's actually worked to my benefit to keep both.

This is such a great example. I hope you as listeners at home are really taking something away from this because, you know, when I talk about naming your number, when I talk about this methodology that we put together towards getting to financial independence, you know, it's three steps. It's super easy. You can do two of the steps 100% on your own. And the third is where the fun really begins. But the first step is picking your passive income number. It's naming what are your expenses, doubling that And then that's your target passive income number, the first level, why is it double is double because we want to create more than you need, we want to create that feeling of abundance. And we want to keep the ability to compound that money even when you start living off of it. But the second piece is really big here. And this really underlines what you're talking about is what is your vision, as an individual who is looking to create financial independence, to be free to be able to do whatever you want, whenever you want, you get the ability to sit down and paint that picture of what life is going to look like. And for some people, they want to go live on the beach, or they want to go travel with their family, but they want to quit their job or for people like me, I want to dive deeper into my mission and do more of the stuff that I love, but have the ability to not do it. What I'm hearing from you is you're a great example of somebody who, who's enjoys their career, they've found a way that they can enjoy it, and they're making more money as a result of it. And you're still living this amazing, beautiful life, you're totally job optional. But you've decided to stay in it. And you don't have to feel any pressure. I think a lot of people often do feel pressure when they think about financial freedom or financial independence, that someone's going to tell them to quit their job. And they're thinking, Man, I like what I do I enjoy it. Why would I ever quit doing this? And then they got to get turned off from it. So you're a great example of somebody who went that path and kept doing it?

David Vernich 16:27
Well, we had an example I was I was thinking this past September, my wife and I both turned 60. So several years before we turned 60, we'd like to do big milestone trips. Well, the bank only gives me three weeks vacation. And so essentially, I like I might have to quit my job because we're doing this trip, whether they say yes or no. So I said, I'm going to go and pitch the idea to them. So I said I'm taking the entire month of September off. And we're going to go to Greece. And we had this plan for two years, and I don't have enough vacation time. So but I'm going to do it whether you say yes or no. And I talked to my boss, and he said, let me make a call to human resources. And he said you can have there was only six extra days that I had to get off. And they said you can have it without pay. Well, I told him I was going to take it regardless. But I've also had my best year ever, this past year. So I'd already had met my eyes surpassed my goal, actually. So they weren't gonna do anything to let me go. They can't hardly replace people that have left anyway. So I looked at it and say, Look, this is a win win situation. But I had the ability to actually say, if you say no, and you put your your foot in this, and you know the draw the line in the sand, and so you can't do it. I wouldn't take it anyway, and deal with its aftermath, because I had the passive income I didn't need, didn't need the job.

There's a level of self ownership and confidence that comes along with knowing that you can make decisions not from a place of fear, but from a place of trust that it's all meant to be. And this is one great example of how you can do that.

David Vernich 18:03
Yeah, most people just dream of hopefully retiring one day and being able to travel. And my argument is, you know, there's really three phases when you think about it. And I read this on a vacation one day, there's the Go Go years, the slow go years, and the no go years. And most people I say the gogo years are basically if you've got kids empty nest when the kids are out until probably 75. And then you're slow go years, or 75 to 80 or 85 and picking their health and the no go years or, Hey, I'm old, and I can't go anywhere. I'm just kind of homebound. And most people put off, and they burn through the best years that go go years. And that's when you need to be doing the traveling but they don't have the time or the money. And in this case, you don't have the time because you haven't developed passive income, which is something you got to start as soon as possible.

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. That's so true. So for people who are getting on this path, and they're thinking about doing this, and they're looking at the world around us, they're looking at the economy, they're looking at inflation. They're looking at rates going up, they're seeing their current retirement because they're invested in Wall Street and some of these traditional methods we're seeing that impacted. How can they stay motivated? How can they stay resourceful, while looking at the world outside as they're starting to make this transition towards a path where they actually own that path towards financial independence?

David Vernich 19:31
Well, I had a conversation with somebody today he was saying the same things about how difficult it is for, you know, people that are getting started to get into buying their first house for them individually to live in. And I said, Well, it was difficult for everybody at that age, you know, there's no perfect you look back in history, there is no perfect time where everybody simultaneously said this is the best time to do the x whatever it is, and everybody does it. So there's always a reason and always not to do something. And if you're looking for a reason, it's easy to find why you shouldn't do it. So my philosophy has always been, get as prepared as you could possibly get. But don't wait for perfection, because it won't come. And the people that benefit from the good times, like when the real estate market is hot. The people that had bought real estate 10 years ago, were the beneficiaries that hot market map the person that's decided to jump in when the markets hot right? And 10 years ago, why weren't people buying it? Well, there's lots of reasons for people not to buy it. But the people that actually did buy it, are the ones that are the beneficiaries of their good times.

It's so true, it's so true. It's, it's about doing it without needing it to be exactly the right time or the right place. But doing it consistently, over and over and over again, over a long enough period of time that you benefit from whatever happens to be going on in the market. You can't time the market, you can't think it's the perfect time, I have people who are saying, I think it's going to be better in two years. So I'm going to wait two years. And guess what I started my investing career in real estate back in 2016. And started part time back in 2014. When when I looked at this back in 2014, and 2016, I was told we've got another one or two years, 18 months is what I was told they were wrong. Now we might be heading into something that we don't know. But there's always going to be times of uncertainty. And so if we're trying to be perfect, what we really are is we're stuck in this place of fear. We're stuck trying to stay in this certainty of knowing what we happen to know now. But the truth is, everything's changing. It's always changing. But that's a beautiful blessing. Because when it's changing, that actually is what creates the opportunity. Because when there's problems, there's profit. And that's exactly what we look for when we're investing when we're investing in businesses or real estate or notes, or other things like that. So the other piece of naming your number really comes down to the vehicle that you're going to use, and it's getting access to these vehicles, it's getting access to the the teams, the experts, it's understanding the strategies to save money on taxes, understanding the strategies to start creating a portfolio that's paying you and creating a portfolio that's growing so that it can pay you bigger in the future. So let's talk a little bit about some of the vehicles that you have used to create this passive income. I know one of them happens to be investing in partnerships in single family homes. Talk to us about when you're investing in those homes as a, as a passive investor, how you look at that type of investment, and what you're trying to solve for what's the type of return? Or what are you looking for, and how somebody might be able to follow in those footsteps to understand, oh, well, maybe this is a strategy that I want to add to my portfolio to create passive income.

David Vernich 23:06
What I have found is that, you know, besides all the fear things that you've addressed, or mindset issues, which are big, I mean, they do keep a lot of people from doing any action whatsoever, including myself, by the way. So when I was first looking at real estate, not only did I realize, hey, I'm not any good at this, but I also had fear of too much debt, and fear of failure, and all the things that each one of us individually need to overcome. I had those same things. And especially if you're steeped into the world of finance, where, yeah, you're listening to multiple podcasts, maybe you're listening to Dave Ramsey saying that, you know, debt is bad. And if you're trying to get into real estate, you know, and pay cash for something good luck, you're gonna be waiting a long time before you can have that much money saved up. So you have all these things you have to kind of overcome. And then you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And you see, Robert Kiyosaki tells you there's a difference between good debt and bad debt, which, you know, nobody explains that to you until you read it for the first time. And then it's so obvious, but then again, nobody's introduced you to that even a simple concept, where that should be taught like in grade school, about good debt and bad debt. So essentially, you come to this realization that, okay, what I'm doing isn't going to get me to where I'm going want to go? 100% just the math itself. And I'm not talking about calculus math, I'm talking about how old are you? How many years how many years you have until your your retirement age that you're trying to figure out when you can retire? What are you making right now? You know, and do you have a portfolio if that's where you're putting all your money in a 401 K? That at 4% is going to generate enough to replace your income and the answer for 95% of the people is no, it's not even gonna come close. And you add social security to that you're still underwater, you know, essentially, most financial planners are basically telling people Well, you're gonna have less, you're not gonna have a mortgage in retirement, well, that's not true. A lot of people still have mortgages, and you're gonna want to travel. But you know, you're not gonna have the money to travel, because you make less money than you did when you were working full time. Yeah, you have time off now, but you have no money, you know. So you have all these concepts hitting you from all sides. And those things need to motivate you, number one, to do something about it. And then secondly, you have to find like you said, the vehicle to do it. And with real estate being something that's so simple to understand, everybody understands real estate, because everybody's either paying rent or mortgage, everyone's understands the concept, what they don't want to do is, I don't want to get into debt. I don't want to have to fix the leaky toilet at 2am. I don't want the tenant who's going to trash my property, and then I've got all this money I got to spend, nobody wants those things, because

they really want is they want the passive income because the passive income is the result. They don't want to do the work. They don't want to be active, they don't want to be focused on the making money portion of it, they want to focus on how do they multiply it. So when you're investing in the single family homes in your passive, tell us? How does that deal work? When you're putting your 100,000 or $150,000 to work? And, you know, how do you receive money back in that type of a deal?

David Vernich 26:20
Two ways. One is, we buy everything with cash. So being a cash buyer either gets us to snag deals quicker than someone that says, hey, I want to buy this, but I need to qualify for financing. And then secondly, you can get deals, especially today, because prices are starting to decrease. And so they're looking, you know, when things are on the market for a long time, people get a little bit more hungry, and they want this thing sold. And we've putting in we could put in some lower offers and get people to reject them, and then call us two weeks later when they've got nothing better going on. And they love the idea that there were cash buyers, so the investor will get a return of their money as soon as we can get a house and turn it meaning put a tenant in there who's paying rent, it should be cashflow positive. Right after that. Once it's cashflow positive, my job as the banker David, yes, let's

just talk specifically about the investor. So they've invested $100,000, somebody else is going to operate this single family property, someone else found it, right, someone else is putting the loan together, someone else is going to manage the property and they're just putting their $100,000 up for the money that's needed to buy it. And then it sounds like as a result that what comes back is they get both cash flow. And then they also get a part of the profit. So when they're getting that cash flow, like what type of cash flow are you typically seeing when someone's investing in something like what you're talking about? And granted, it's all time? You know, we're talking right now the beginning or the end of 2022? So, you know, it changes with time. But what does that typically look

David Vernich 28:02
like? So we tried to buy things that are cash flowing roughly $250 a month, which, you know, at the end of the day, people look at that and say that's not moving the needle for me, you know, 250 a month is not going to do anything for me. And what I tell them is you're correct, it's not. That's why you can't just do one of these, you know, the people that I tried to partner with, I put it in their mind, you need to do at least 10, at least 10. But what you also have to remember is how much time is this taking of you if you're plugging into a system where virtually all the effort is being done elsewhere. So all you're

saying is in this example, they're only making maybe one or 2% a year,

David Vernich 28:44
I would say money. So what we try to do is we try to get their money back out of the property through a bank loan, when it makes sense as quickly as possible. So they're going to get a return on their money that a bank would get. So right now, my bank, for example, on animal properties 6.75 is is what their interest rate is. So an investor could expect to get a 6.75% return on their money, because we either borrowed from the bank or we borrowed from an investor doesn't matter. But they're an equity partner in the deal. And they're on the title as well. So not only are they getting the 6.75 that we'd be paying to the bank, they're also getting their percentage of the cash flow as well as their percentage of the appreciation when we sell and the depreciation to offset their cash flow.

Sure. So the structure is actually kind of a combination, or they're essentially getting a note on their money. They're getting a low percentage, but they're putting up 100% of it and they're in that position. But then they're also going to get a piece of the equity the upside, and once that's refinanced out at some point in the future. They ideally get most of their money back but they retain that equity and therefore they retain a piece of that cash flow. So Really the concept here that you're talking about David is really this idea of planting some seeds. It's not about what you're going to get in the short run, although you will get some type of decent return. And it varies based on what the interest rate is in the market. But over time, you'll slowly get that money back. And then you'll be able to do that again and plant these seeds so that eventually, those seeds will grow, and you can harvest and really start reaping the gains.

David Vernich 30:33
That's correct. And so now when I look back on my portfolio after 15 years, pretty much every year, about half of my passive income is coming from profitable cash flow from my rental properties. And the other half is coming from capital gains from properties that have appreciated so much, it makes more sense to sell them than then to keep them. But we're constantly replenishing the pool, simply the same thing as a stock portfolio, you're gonna look at a stock that's arisen and doubled or tripled in value and say, Is this the time to sell and maybe redeploy that capital into something that, you know is in a different market in real estate, just like you would with stocks?

This is so great. And this is what I love about the idea of really taking on the investor mindset and really starting to understand the different vehicles, we could talk to 100 different investors, and they'll have 100 different vehicles that can get you to the same location. Each vehicle like the one that David's talking about is going to have its benefits. As David is talking about, he's got a combination of a note where he's getting a set rate of return. And that's backed by a piece of real estate. So there's some security there. The second piece of this is that there's equity and cashflow. And so you're actually going to continue to receive some of that upside in that back end. And so over time, if you use this strategy, maybe it's exclusive, maybe it's combined with others, you could start to see those type of benefits. So depending on what your vision and goals are on your timeline, to hitting that target passive income number, you can back into what that is going to look like and how much you need to invest over time. So this has been really phenomenal. It's been great getting to know you, David, I know you wrote a book and you just put it out to the world. And you worked with some amazing folks on getting that published. Love it if you could share the title of that with the audience and let them know how they can get in touch about getting a copy themselves.

David Vernich 32:36
Absolutely. So the title of the book, and some Amazon is middle class to millionaire making the leap to the next level. And it's targeted towards those frustrated WTF people like myself, trying to figure out how do I build my passive income with not really quitting my job. And I'm willing to as a as a benefit for people that have listened to the podcast, to send a free copy, it'd be a PDF of the book, by email to anyone that wants to request it. And they can request it by just finding me on LinkedIn, we're all WT people seem to hang out at some point. And just say, Hey, I listened to you on Steven's podcast. And I'd like a free copy of the book, and I'll shoot you a free copy.

Wonderful. And while you're over there, make sure you go find Steven pensamento follow me and shoot me the same email letting me know that you're a listener, we can stay in touch and do some amazing things. David, it was so great diving into this strategy and hearing your inspirational story. A great example of someone who's created that path is living financial independence, and working in a career they love, living a great life and traveling and doing all the things that you want to do. Thanks so much for being on here. As a listener, I highly encourage you to grab a copy of that book and ask yourself, what from today's session, can I take home as a lesson? What can I apply? And what kind of action can I take as a result? Thanks so much, and we'll see on the next episode.

Today's episode is sponsored by VonFinch capital. If you're interested in investing alongside me in the same type of real estate opportunities that I personally invest in, then head over to VonFinch capital and join their private investor network. You can do so at Vonfinch.com/invest. Join me on that next deal. I look forward to seeing you on the inside.

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Move Past One Source Income – David Vernick

Episode Transcription

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